馬爾：但“培訓(xùn)營(yíng)”不是解決問題的答案。英國(guó)在北愛爾蘭使用過類似方法，不允許人員自由離開，不成功。

　　劉大使：那不是什么“培訓(xùn)營(yíng)”，我們稱為“職業(yè)技能教育培訓(xùn)中心”。極端思想在貧困地區(qū)更易傳播滲透，要使貧困地區(qū)的人民脫貧，就必須使他們擺脫極端思想的毒害。

Marr: Can I just put it to you that internment camps are not the answer? We tried them in Northern Ireland and it did not go well for Britain in Northern Ireland. These are camps with razor wire around them, people cannot leave them.

Ambassador: This is not a camp. It is a vocational education and training centre. You know that extremist ideas have easy penetration to the poorer areas. The idea is to help the people, to lift them out of poverty.

　　馬爾：那為何中國(guó)政府否認(rèn)它們的存在？

　　劉大使：我們從未否認(rèn)它們的存在，我們甚至邀請(qǐng)外國(guó)外交官和包括BBC在內(nèi)的外國(guó)媒體去參訪，BBC記者與學(xué)員見面并采訪了他們。我認(rèn)為，人們應(yīng)該從積極的角度看待這件事，設(shè)立職業(yè)教培中心的目的就是為了預(yù)防恐怖活動(dòng)，從源頭消除恐怖極端思想的侵害。自從這項(xiàng)措施實(shí)施以來，新疆已有三年未發(fā)生恐襲事件。

Marr: If these camps are only about that, if they are so innocent, why did the Chinese government deny for so long that they existed?

Ambassador: We didn't deny. We invited journalists and diplomats to visit. That is why BBC has access to interview people over there. I think you need to look at this from the positive perspective. It is for the purpose of early prevention of terrorism. And since the measure was introduced, there has been no terrorist incident for three years.

　　馬爾：不管怎么說，這也是嚴(yán)格管理的地方，人員不能離開，是嗎？

　　劉大使：他們當(dāng)然能離開，他們能自由會(huì)見他們的家人親屬，這絕不是所謂“監(jiān)獄”或者“集中營(yíng)”。

Marr: Nonetheless, these are quite difficult areas, these camps. They are internment camps and people cannot leave them, can they?

Ambassador: They can go, of course. They can leave freely. They can visit their relatives. It is not a prison. It is not a camp.

　　馬爾：BBC報(bào)道了一些在土耳其的新疆人，稱他們的孩子被迫與他們分開，他們表示很擔(dān)心。這些孩子現(xiàn)在哪里？

　　劉大使：我們先來談?wù)勥@些人是什么人。這些人都是反對(duì)中國(guó)政府的，你會(huì)期待他們說中國(guó)政府的好話嗎？教培中心學(xué)員的孩子們得到中國(guó)政府精心照顧。

Marr: The BBC talked to some of the parents of Uyghur children who are now in Turkey and they are really upset about the fact that they have been separated from their children and they don't know where they are. I can show you a little clip of it so we can hear what they say. So where are these children?

Ambassador: Let's first talk about these people. They are anti-government people. You cannot expect a good word about the Chinese government. The children, you know, the government takes good care of the children.

　　馬爾：他們的孩子被迫與他們分離？

　　劉大使：不是這樣的。如果他們想見自己的孩子，完全可以回國(guó)看望。

Marr: Are they separating forcibly parents from their children in Xinjiang?

Ambassador: No. If they want to visit their children, they can come back to China.

　　馬爾：所以這些都是謊言嗎？

　　劉大使：當(dāng)然是謊言。根本沒有所謂“強(qiáng)制父母和孩子分離”情況。

Marr: So these are all just lies?

Ambassador: Definitely. There is no forcible separation of children from their parents at all.

　　馬爾：BBC記者去新疆采訪了一次，稱有400個(gè)家庭的孩子失蹤。

　　劉大使：你把失蹤孩子的家庭具體信息告訴我。關(guān)于人員失蹤，有許多信息是錯(cuò)誤的，我們需要甄別處理。比如，某國(guó)稱新疆一位維族音樂家被殺害，但這位音樂家很快公開露面，活得好好的。如果你掌握所謂失蹤孩子的信息，請(qǐng)你告訴我，我們會(huì)盡力幫助尋找，我們會(huì)告訴你，他們是誰，他們現(xiàn)在干什么。

　　馬爾：大使先生，謝謝你接受我的專訪。

Marr: The BBC has been to one town in the province where, in just one town, 400 families lost their children.

Ambassador: You just give me the names of the families who have lost their children. There is a lot of misinformation about people gone missing. We handled many cases like this. Some country said a musician got killed and the other day he emerged alive and happy. If you have people whose children are lost, you give me the names and we will try to locate them and let you know who they are and what they are doing.

Marr: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.