馬爾：北京需要引渡罪犯的權(quán)力，是嗎？

　　劉大使：我不這么認(rèn)為。修例的提議由特區(qū)政府發(fā)起，正如行政長官所說，特區(qū)政府從未收到來自中央政府的指示或命令，這完全是特區(qū)政府的提議，是為了完善香港的法律體系。

Marr: These are powers that Beijing wants?

Ambassador: I don't think so. The whole thing was started by Hong Kong SAR government. Just as the Chief Executive said, she received no instruction from Beijing. She received no order from Beijing. It is completely the initiative launched by Hong Kong SAR government, to make Hong Kong system more perfect, to improve the legal system.

　　馬爾：我們都看到了立法會受沖擊的視頻，香港警方似乎無法阻擋抗議示威者，如果中方認(rèn)為形勢失控、特區(qū)政府無法控局，中國中央政府會直接介入嗎？

　　劉大使：你提到了“一國兩制”50年不變，我們完全遵守這項(xiàng)承諾，這是毫無疑問的。從這件事開始一直到現(xiàn)在，中國中央政府從未進(jìn)行任何干預(yù)，每個階段都是特區(qū)政府在處理。相反，英國政府卻在干涉，他們一開始對示威者表示支持。當(dāng)暴徒?jīng)_擊立法會時，他們又聲稱不能以暴力事件為借口進(jìn)行鎮(zhèn)壓，他們企圖破壞香港法治。對你的問題，我的回答十分明確，我們對特區(qū)政府有信心，而且事實(shí)已經(jīng)證明他們有能力應(yīng)對事態(tài)。

Marr: We've seen all the scenes in LegCo in Hong Kong recently. There seemed to be the case that the police there couldn't hold back the protesters. If you feel the situation is getting out of control and the Hong Kong authorities can't control things, does China interfere directly in Hong Kong?

Ambassador: You mentioned "One China, Two Systems" for 50 years. We are fully committed to this promise. There is no question about that. So you can see that from day one till now, the central government has not interfered at all. Every step of the way, we let the Hong Kong SAR government handle this. Instead, it is the British government that was trying to interfere, voicing support for the demonstrators. When the rioters stormed the Legislative Council, they even said that you can't use this violence as a pretext for repression. So they tried to obstruct the legal process. To answer your question in a simple way, we have full confidence in Hong Kong SAR government. And it shows that they are capable of handling the situation.

　　馬爾：無論如何，修例將使向內(nèi)地移交罪犯變得更加容易。彭定康稱，事態(tài)正在逐步惡化，持有錯誤觀點(diǎn)的人不能參加政治活動，媒體和大學(xué)言論自由被削弱。一些人在香港被劫持，然后被帶回內(nèi)地。

　　劉大使：我斷然拒絕彭定康的指責(zé)。作為香港末任港督，他身體已經(jīng)進(jìn)入21世紀(jì)，但腦袋卻仍留在舊殖民時代。修例并不會使從香港引渡罪犯變得更容易，修例有保障條款，37種罪行以外的不屬于移交范圍。比如，涉及宗教和政治類的不在引渡之列，而且罪行必須在香港、內(nèi)地兩地都成立。假設(shè)一個極端的例子，如果謀殺在香港不構(gòu)成刑事犯罪，那么殺人犯就不會被引渡。

Marr: Nevertheless, this law would make it easier to extradite people to China. Chris Patten, the last governor, said, things have gone from bad to very bad to even worse. People with the wrong views have been banned from political activity. Freedom of speech has been whittled away in the media and in the universities. Beijing has even abducted individuals from Hong Kong and taken them back to the mainland.

Ambassador: I totally reject the accusation of Chris Patten. As the last governor of Hong Kong, his body is in the 21st century, but his head remains in the old colonial days. This bill won't make it easier for Hong Kong to extradite people to the mainland. There are many safeguards. You know, first of all, there are 37 clauses as safeguards in this Bill. That means, no people would be extradited to mainland because of their religious or political beliefs. And the crime has to be punishable in both places. That means, to make an extreme case, if murder was not regarded as a crime in Hong Kong, then people who committed murder would not be extradited to the mainland.

　　馬爾：近期中英之間爭吵十分激烈。亨特甚至威脅要對中國實(shí)施制裁，中英關(guān)系出現(xiàn)危機(jī)了嗎？

　　劉大使：我不這樣認(rèn)為。我們對外交爭論不感興趣，中方仍致力于與英國發(fā)展強(qiáng)勁有力的伙伴關(guān)系。我還記得上次接受你的專訪，是在習(xí)近平主席2015年對英國進(jìn)行國事訪問前夕。

Marr: There has been a very, very angry row by diplomatic standards. Jeremy Hunt is still threatening further, possibly, sanctions and so forth against China if it goes on. Is this a moment when British-Chinese relations are in real crisis?

Ambassador: I don't think so. We are not interested in diplomatic row with the UK. We are still committed to building stronger relationship, partnership. The "Golden Era" started by President Xi -- I still remember the last time you interviewed me was before President Xi's visit in 2015 --